Henrik Fisker distances his company from Tesla, GM
Fisker Karma - Click above for high-res image gallery
Considering the two fledgling automaker's past history, it's not terribly surprising that Henrik Fisker would want to distance his company from Tesla Motors. Recall that Fisker had originally been tasked with penning the design for the Tesla S electric sedan but later unveiled the Karma after being dismissed by the Silicon Valley automaker. There was a lawsuit, which was ruled in Fisker's favor by an arbitration court.
Speaking at a meeting of the Western Automotive Journalists Association, Fisker said, "The full-electric car [like the Tesla Roadster] is a niche market. Plug-in hybrids have a much bigger market." Of course, not everyone agrees that PHEVs are the way to go. Fisker goes on to say that his company's latest business plan will lead to profits at just 5,000 annual sales, though the goal remains 15,000 sales per year.
What about the Chevy Volt, which uses a similar range-extended electric architecture as the Fisker Karma? Somewhat disparagingly, Fisker suggests that GM's future EV won't really be competition for the Fisker, saying only, "It's a Chevy." He's got a point, though, as the Volt is likely to cost about half what Fisker plans to ask for the Karma and surely won't fit into the same luxury category as Fisker's green machine.
Gallery: Fisker Karma
[Source: Hybrid Cars]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
DasBoese 8:32PM (7/03/2009)
Well, luxury cars of any kind are a niche market in this economic climate, regardless of drivetrain. But yeah, there's plenty of room in the market for all the vehicles mentioned, they each cover a different segment, so far without competition.
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ufgrat 8:56PM (7/03/2009)
And what does Fisker say about the Converj?
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Dave 6:48AM (7/04/2009)
Af 5000 units per year, the Fisker sounds fairly exclusive. To some, that exclusivity is worth the price of entry.
The Converj will surely need to sell many more units to achieve profitability.
Lad 10:44PM (7/03/2009)
Whether to carry the additional weight of an ICE extender is the question. Both the Volt and Fisker are plugins that carry another complete power plant along in case they need it. The extra weight reduces the range and performance of the battery only mode.
Perhaps Toyota has it right with the HEV where the small battery is an accelerator assist.
Or perhaps Nissan has the correct plan with a car that will exceed 100 miles on the battery only...too bad someone hasn't designed a small portable APU you can carry if needed for a range extender...like in a small trailer.
I believe as cars are manufactured with lighter materials and batteries progress in efficiency and range, the BEV will be the winner.
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letstakeawalk 8:01AM (7/04/2009)
You can't be serious... you suggest that the range extending ICE in the Volt and the Karma adds uneeded weigtht - and then you suggest that someone should design a small range extending power unit to be pulled along in a trailer?
GoodCheer 6:07PM (7/04/2009)
letstakeawalk:
When any of my friends has to move, who do they ask for help? Not Dave with the Suburban, not Jeff with the Tacoma, it's me. I drive a '98 Civic. I have a trailer. My average mileage is about 38mpg. I have moved two beds (frame, box-spring & mattress) and two desks in one load.
There's no need to bring all the utility you need all the time. If there's a simple solution to only use what you need, then go for it. Driving around 350 days a year in a 50 mile (or whatever) EV, and 15 days a year renting a 'hybridizing trailer', ultimately makes much more sense than carrying the generator around that you only use twice a month. If every Hertz or U-Haul (or interstate service plaza) had a couple such trailers sitting around for rent, it would be a piece of cake to pick one up on your way out of town when you have some miles to cover.
In fact, AC Propulsion built just such a trailer in the late '90s, and drove a RAV4-EV to Washington (from CA, without plugging in), as a technology demonstration. Even as a one-off prototype, the trailer only cost about $7000 to build (IIRC, from a presentation by Tom Gage)
Lad 6:45PM (7/04/2009)
I'm serious OM because you only use the trailer when you are driving long distances; that way you only carry the extra weigh when you need too. If you drive beyond the battery range often then you must wait for the battery technology to catch up with your needs or take mass transit. But don't buy an ICE because the whole idea is to move off fossil fuels and reduce pollution.
Tim Sutton 7:11AM (7/07/2009)
But with no drive train, gearbox, clutch etc, having an ICE as well does not mean having a complete ICE set up and drive train as per current cars like the Prius. The Fisker only uses ICE to recharge the batteries and so can be set to run most efficiently and constantly and only when needed.
Lad 10:10AM (7/07/2009)
The idea is the APU would in effect make the BEV a serial hybrid; just like the Volt, when the battery reaches 70% discharge, the APU turns on and charges the batteries as you continue. As long as the charge rate exceeds the load on the batteries, you could even collect electrons back into the battery, i.e, when going down hill. No matter, when you add the ICE to the BEV, it become a bit complicated and requires good control engineering of the charge device...just like in the Volt!
CaramelZappa 11:05PM (7/03/2009)
Yes, right now people feel safer getting range extended EV's rather than BEV's, but from an engineering, as well as a green standpoint, it's not as good as a pure battery ev.
For some reason I've never really been interested in the Fisker.
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Seriously? 12:55AM (7/04/2009)
After all, both the Volt and the Karma will use GM motors...
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/25/report-fisker-now-taking-orders-for-karma-s-convertible/
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TomEV 6:41AM (7/04/2009)
The Fisker Karma is defintely targeted to richer public but when seeing it in person you know where the money goes. It looks far better than any standard Mercedes or BMW. The finishing of the interior was flawless.
Of course the question remains whether the Karma should be a BEV, but I think they made a safe bet to add a range extender to reduce the anxiety of prospective buyers afraid that they will be stranded. If people want to go fully electric then they could go for the Tesla Model S. As batteries improve the range extender to eventualy become a thing of the past. Although PHEVs are not as "green" as BEVs they most definitely will be adopted quicker by consumers.
If want to see a video of the fisker karma interior:
http://www.greenobile.com/TomEV/vid/22
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RAN 12:10PM (7/04/2009)
"You can't be serious... you suggest that the range extending ICE in the Volt and the Karma adds uneeded weight - and then you suggest that someone should design a small range extending power unit to be pulled along in a trailer?"
Yes, it makes perfect sense for now. If you only need the extended range for two weeks out of the year, or a weekend now and then, why carry around an ICE and genset for the other 50 weeks? Batteries in a serial hybrid have to go through many more charge/discharge cycles because the range is much less, and there will be times during the year when a 40-50 mile AER won't be enough and you'll have to burn gas. A BEV with a 100-150 mile range will be plenty for most people for all their local driving. Putting the genset in a small trailer solves the weight/range issues of BEVs vs serial hybrids until the day when longer range and faster charging are common.
If I could get an honest 300 miles at highway speeds out of my BEV, I wouldn't mind pulling over for even a 60 minute recharge, but to have to do that every 75-100 miles just ain't gonna get it (that 100-150 mile city range drops on the hwy). Some day that will be doable, but we're a few years away yet.
If these genset trailers were mass-produced, they would cost less than buying a 2nd ICE car to keep around for longer trips. Even better, they could be available to rent to save you even more money, depending on how often you needed one.
I can see why Tesla doesn't want to do the extra engineering to make a serial hybrid. They are limiting the range you can drive, but that's the way they want to go. On the other hand, they could engineer *one* genset trailer that any of their cars could use for extended range, and open up their products to many more customers that just aren't comfortable with a limited range.
Limited range is one thing.... limited options are just not a good way to go when introducing new, expensive technology.
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Nick P. 1:07PM (7/04/2009)
I can't wait for the day when all 3 cars are on the road and people start voting with their pocketbook. I'm not sure that range anxiety will be that important in a few years.
I really think GM should have spent more time on the styling and made the Volt into a Cadillac, because the current styling does not justify the 40k price tag.
Time will tell...
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ufgrat 1:14AM (7/05/2009)
... you know GM is making a Cadillac with the Voltec drive train, yes?
The first generation Volt is a proof-of-proficiency-- Not a proof-of-concept, but a demonstration that GM is serious about Voltec, and can produce a reliable, comfortable car with decent performance and impressive gas mileage. I don't think it's going to be a huge seller, but it will sell fairly well, get good press, and be replaced by the cheaper second generation Volt within a year.
Nick P. 7:12AM (7/05/2009)
Yes i know about the Cadillac, but they had not yet came out with a date and/or pricing, so as far as I'm concerned it's like every other prototype from Chrysler, Cooper/BMW and others.
My point however is that the exterior design of the Volt doesn't do justice to the incredible engineering that is laying underneath. Even if the Volt ends up being more reliable than Tesla and Fisker, it still looks like a Chevrolet. Styling is important.
gorr 4:50PM (7/04/2009)
I don't mind anyone selling electric cars as long as it's not subsidized by taxpayer money. Let the market decide. If they sell more volts then fisker or tesla or anything then that's it. It's the consumer that decide 100% and private entreprenors suggest deals if they know a thing or two about cars. Till today it's not hard to see that all the privates and subsidized entreprenors are offering heavilly depressed cars that nobody really like. The market is almost 100% gasoline with overpriced and underpowered cars. and nobody is selling a car that cost less and offer bigger performance and space. All the other industry have offered better technology for a lesser price, electronics, microwave, computers, watchs, telephones, sport motorcycles, etc. Im sure it's because that all the manufacturers have join together and are reiceiving taxmoney that actual cars are cheapers, smaller, dirtier and costly. They always with goverments and big-oil have taxed the motorist to the max for all reasons there is, today they are going down the sink because they try to live with someone else brain instead of living by their own brains. Listen 1 minutes any politicians or car manufacturers managers, they can't speak on anything because they work for nobody and nobody is taking their lies anymore. It's been 10 years that they think abouth green cars and there is not a single green car that cost less and offer more. This is the definition of a green car: better for cheaper price. They could have offered natural gas( better and cheaper), hydrogen (better and cheaper) hydraulic fluids (better and cheaper) and many more technology. But as they have grab together then they are just looking for taxmoney and cannot compete between them because big-oil have bouth them. They horrify me. Even their hydrogen cars are stupid because they have a huge tank and this is to please big-oil that promised that in 2040 they will look at it, LOL. They could have offered a water tank instead but they work for big-oil.so they have insulted us with a proof of concept that don't work and they work all day everywhere in the world to show to actual consumers that they cannot sell them because the big bad goverment and big oil don't want to install unnessary hydrogen gas infrastructure. If you have to make a deal with a subsidized folks, don't expect anything good, it's a poison from a faceless businessman like toyota, honda, gm, ford, chrysler, nissan, bmw, volks, audi, ferrari, porsche, aston-martin, buggatti, lamborgnini, mclaren, william racing, nascar, etc.
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