Toyota's Bill Reinert lets loose on ethanol, li-ion batteries, plug-in vehicles
Toyota's Bill Reinert should be better known. With so many quotable statements coming from GM's Bob Lutz and Tesla Motor's Elon Musk, perhaps Reinert, Toyota Motor Sales' national manager or the advanced technology group, is just overshadowed in the OMG series. But, during a recent conference sponsored by Fortune in Orange County, Reinert made a play to get his dramatic words out there. Speaking to Automobile Mag, he said:That's the first law of Disney at work--wishing will make it so. Using ethanol for fuel is like electing the dumbest kid in school as class president. As for plug-in electrics, they're just not plausible right now. Lithium-ion batteries are too expensive by at least an order of magnitude. They're not energy-dense enough. And we generate a lot of our electricity from coal. I don't think Shai [Agassi, of Better Place] is being disingenuous. I think he really believes what he's saying. I see it all the time from those Palo Alto types. They think the whole world is like a computer company, and they're always trying to recreate the dot-com economy. You see exactly the same mind-set with Tesla. It's all going to work out. It worked out with eBay. It worked out with SAP. But transportation is a different world. I mean, Shai's bragging about driving an electric RAV4 with a seventy-mile range. How many of your friends are going to buy that car?That, my friends, is just good stuff. Whaddya think? We also have audio of Reinert speaking at length on the state of the green car industry.
[Source: Automobile Mag]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Alan 12:07PM (7/17/2009)
Open the floodgates!
Well Mr. Reinert, wishing that Toyota's competitors were less progressive and that Toyota was ahead of the curve won't make it so.
No people, just buy a Prius, even considering anything else is just STUPID!
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Paul Stoller 12:10PM (7/17/2009)
This is the same sort of attitude that led the domestic manufacturers to decline, keep that attitude up Toyota and you'll end up just like them.
why not the LS2LS7? 12:12PM (7/17/2009)
Well, he has some valid points. But the coal thing is ridiculous. Is it not even possible to keep high ups at Toyota informed? Even if you run your EV on coal it is still pretty clean due to the high efficiency. And once we all use electricity for our transportation, we can change sources our plants run on a lot easier than we can refit all cars to run on another fuel directly. So if we run out of oil or gas or decide coal is too dirty we can build new plants.
Also, I think he sells Shai Agassi's idea a bit short. The idea isn't that people should only be able to go 70 miles, but instead of figure out how people can go as far as they want using vehicles that can only go 70 miles on a charge. I'm not sure he can pull it off, but if it can it'll make a huge difference, most notably on the issue Reinert points out first off, that batteries are 10x too expensive. If we only need 70 miles worth of batteries to get wherever we want to go, then suddenly now batteries are only 2.5x too expensive, because we need 1/4th as many of them.
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marz 12:27PM (7/17/2009)
Shut up Bill, you make a reaonably priced RAV EV with 100 mi. range, they'll sell like crazy. It was possible 10 yrs. ago! NiMH cost has dropped almost 90%. Efficiency is up 25%. What's the problem?
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Tim 12:45PM (7/17/2009)
[ edited away because it was nothing but a personal attack. keep it on topic ]
bvz 2:09PM (7/17/2009)
Sheesh Tim,
Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
Monroe 2:16PM (7/17/2009)
Wow, that Tim guy is touchy. Toyota can bash competitors but Marz can't bash in response else be a "fascist." I smell bias....
Tim 2:48PM (7/17/2009)
Toyota's "bashing" is free speech. I don’t agree with them either BUT it is the unpopular (and even incorrect) speech which needs protection. If it weren't for people speaking out against the popular "status-quo" humanity would STILL be living in caves and eating raw meat that they caught with their bare hands!
Intellectuals welcome new ideas. Even when they don't agree, they welcome and in fact cherish open debate in hopes that they will learn something… anything!
Only close minded foolish children and cowards fear debate enough to tell others to "shut up".
Open ears and an open mind learns much while an open mouth learns NOTHING.
NEVER tell others to shut up!!!!!
marz 3:13PM (7/17/2009)
Aww, Tim you uncovered my secret! Because I told someone to shut up, I'm a Facist? Who's the 12 yr. old here, cool your jets man! I'd be happy to see the market decide, but bofo guys like Bob & Bill are doing their best to keep that from happening. I've owned several Toyotas, so I'd rather not see them follow in GM's footsteps. Fortunately, I don't think Mr. Toyoda will let that happen & hopefully will clean house of spin stooges like Bill.
Nixon 12:26PM (7/17/2009)
I think that when Toyota has THE top selling "green" car currently on the market (Prius) it is a smart business/marketing maneuver to bash every single other option to your product. Toyota doesn't want potential "green" car buyers to stop buying cars while they wait for the upcoming wave of "green" cars to hit the market in the next 5 years. They want everyone to believe that all these cars are just dreams and don't exist, so you as a customer will continue to buy their Prius exactly the way it is today.
That way Toyota can continue to dominate the "green" market sector with only minor tweaks to the Prius until Toyota is forced by a competitor to change. When that day comes, Toyota will announce that they have a brand new product that "Changes Everything". When asked about all their previous bashing of the technology, they will say: "Yes, that was true then when we said it, but we invented XXXX and that changed everything. So buy XXXX now."
So no, please don't cover more of Toyota's anti-everything marketing shtick. It is nothing more than another clever marketing slogan, like "Pepsi: Choice of a New Generation" or whatever. Instead AutoBlogGreen should be pointing out that Toyota is intentionally inserting FUD into the market as a sales ploy to continue sales of their Prius models currently sitting for sale on lots today. If there current marketing campaign were put into a slogan, it would be this:
"Toyota: Crushing your hope for the future, so you will buy our Prius today!"
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ray 12:36PM (7/17/2009)
Sounds like the CEO of VW all over again.
Cars are a bit like computers as they make changes slowly, incrementally so they can market each small change as the new model.
Toyota will come out with a plug-in hybrid but only when they are force to by competing with the Volt.
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CaramelZappa 12:41PM (7/17/2009)
Toyota arguing against coal power just doesn't make sense. They're currently working on hydrogen tech, and how do you produce hydrogen? Though electricity, and the process is a hell of a lot less efficient than using batteries.
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TigerMil 9:43AM (7/18/2009)
Ignorant to say hydrogen is produced through electricity thus implying it's the only production method for hydrogen. Yes, electrolysis is inefficient; hydrogen is also produced through natural gas reformation much more efficiently.
Chris M 7:27PM (7/18/2009)
Yep, the Hydrogen Hyway plan is to produce almost all of the H2 from steam reformed fossil fuels, both natural gas and coal. While the efficiency of H2 from coal is a fraction better, 28% vs, 25%, than EVs on coal, the efficiency with natural gas can be much higher for EVs, particularly if the most efficient generators available are used. Sure, the existing fossil fueled plants aren't all that great, efficiency wise, but if the H2 promoters can propose building an all new H2 production and delivery system, then I can propose upgrading the electrical generation facilities to the latest most efficient types - at a lower cost.
As for making H2 from renewables, that means making electricity first, and EVs are 3x more efficient with electricity than electrolysis/storage/fuel cells, thus using only 1/3 as much renewables - leaving more available to displace fossil fuel use elsewhere.
jake 12:50PM (7/17/2009)
Eh, same old stuff from the same guy. He's the guy who wanted a death watch for plug-ins.
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Pudgie 12:50PM (7/17/2009)
Toyota is forbidden from selling any more plug-in vehicles with NiMH batteries as a result of an agreement with Chevron (because Chevron owns the patent).
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Paul Stoller 1:03PM (7/17/2009)
Not any longer, see the article today announcing that Cobasys has been sold to Bosch/Samsung.
Pudgie 1:13PM (7/17/2009)
Doesn't the agreement then just transfer to Cobasys' new owner? Maybe the new owner could re-open discussions to change their agreement with Toyota, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
If Reinert et al feel that lithium batteries lack the energy density for plug-in EVs, I'm sure they have similar sentiments about NiMH.
mike 12:54PM (7/17/2009)
Those are some odd and stupid words from a toyota corporate guy.
How many people pointed out the shortcomings of the prius along the way as "too expensive" and "never going to work out".
It's true a lot of people will dream up something that will never pan out and it's good to be realistic about it to a degree.
But if nobody does any of these things then the one or two or three that blow up into changing the world will never come about.
I always imagine the great grandfathers of people like this guy heckling the first ICE vehicle builders about how "horses are so much more efficient" and "what a stupid idea it was to be wasting their time with those efforts".
-Mike
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Serge 1:24PM (7/17/2009)
"Lithium-ion batteries are too expensive by at least an order of magnitude."
How many orders of magnitude are HFCEVs (Mr. Reinert's technology of choice) are too expensive?
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